Legislature(1995 - 1996)
03/20/1995 03:40 PM Senate RES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE
March 20, 1995
3:40 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Loren Leman, Chairman
Senator Drue Pearce, Vice Chairman
Senator Steve Frank
Senator Rick Halford
Senator Robin Taylor
Senator Georgianna Lincoln
Senator Lyman Hoffman
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
SENATE BILL NO. 77
"An Act relating to intensive management of identified big game
prey populations."
SENATE BILL NO. 130
"An Act relating to marine pilots and the Board of Marine Pilots;
extending the termination date of the Board of Marine Pilots; and
providing for an effective date."
PREVIOUS ACTION
SB 77 - See Resources minutes dated 3/10/94.
SB 130 - No previous senate committee action.
WITNESS REGISTER
Senator Bert Sharp
State Capitol, Juneau, Alaska, 99801-1182¶465-3004
POSITION STATEMENT: prime sponsor of SB 77
Wayne Regelin, Acting Director
Div. of Wildlife Conservation, Dept. of Fish & Game
P.O. Box 25526, Juneau, AK 99802-5526¶465-4190
POSITION STATEMENT: testified on SB 77
Senator Drue Pearce
State Capitol, Juneau, Alaska, 99801-1182¶465-4993
POSITION STATEMENT: prime sponsor of SB 130
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 95-24, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN LEMAN called the Senate Resources Committee meeting to
order at 3:40 p.m.
SRES - 3/20/95
SB 77 INTENSIVE MANAGEMENT OF GAME
Number 014
CHAIRMAN LEMAN brought up SB 77 as the first order of business
before the Senate Resources Committee.
SENATOR FRANK made a motion to adopt the committee substitute.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN, hearing no objection, stated the committee
substitute had been adopted. The chairman called Senator Sharp,
the prime sponsor of SB 77 to testify.
Number 022
SENATOR BERT SHARP, prime sponsor of SB 77, displayed a chart
showing the game harvest data for the state of Alaska. The data
was compiled by the Alaska Department of Fish & Game. The chart
shows 3% of the harvestable surplus was taken by humans, 10% by
acts of God and old age, and 87% by non-human users. Senator Sharp
stated the number of harvestable game is down state wide and listed
the percentage by which harvestable game is down in each unit and
state wide.
Number 075
SENATOR SHARP displayed a chart of game management units and the
describes the topography and accessibility of the units.
Number 092
SENATOR SHARP stated these game management units have either been
petitioned (except for 25-C) by the public, or the department has
mentioned these areas may be appropriate for intensive management.
Number 117
SENATOR SHARP stated there is very little change in the committee
substitute from the original bill. Under Section 2, paragraph (4)
was added for consistency.
Number 135
SENATOR SHARP stated language was added on page 3, line 18 "for
human harvest" was changed to "by humans." On line 22, the
language, "the board shall manage game populations", was changed to
"the board shall adopt goals to manage." That change was requested
by the department. On page 3, Section 10, subsection (b) was
added.
Number 170
SENATOR SHARP also asked the committee to take into consideration,
in regard to the fiscal note, that no new money will be involved.
Number 183
SENATOR LINCOLN asked Senator Sharp if Section 10, line 29 was at
the request of the Department of Fish & Game.
SENATOR SHARP replied the language on line 22 was requested by the
department.
SENATOR LINCOLN stated she was asking about the language on line
29.
SENATOR SHARP responded line 29 is new.
SENATOR LINCOLN asked if that was at the request of the department.
SENATOR SHARP replied no, it was inserted to clarify that if the
board delegates authority to the commissioner, the commissioner
should follow through on it.
Number 202
SENATOR HOFFMAN asked why the CS has different language on page 3,
line 18 than the language suggested by the department.
Number 210
SENATOR SHARP responded the department did not want to add the
language to which Senator Hoffman is referring; they wanted to
delete it.
Number 220
WAYNE REGELIN, Acting Director, Division of Wildlife Conservation,
Department of Fish & Game, stated he provided to the committee
suggested changes to SB 77.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN doesn't know that the committee has received Mr.
Regelin's suggested changes, but apparently Senator Hoffman has
them. The chairman asked Senator Sharp if he's received Mr.
Regelin's suggestions.
SENATOR SHARP asked Mr. Regelin if he heard the comment he made
regarding the fiscal note.
MR. REGELIN responded he did hear the comment. Mr. Regelin began
a review of the department's suggested changes.
Number 280
SENATOR SHARP pointed out that subsection (c) is still included in
SB 77, which still gives the governor the final decision, if there
is a conflict.
MR. REGELIN stated he has discussed this with the Department of
Law, and they have concerns with the way this is written. The
court decision that just came down didn't get into the expenditure
of funds. So he was not sure how it would apply.
Number 300
SENATOR LINCOLN asked Mr. Regelin to refer to draft G of SB 77 when
reviewing his suggested changes.
Number 307
MR. REGELIN responded he would try to do that. Mr. Regelin
continued with his review of the department's suggested changes.
Number 330
SENATOR SHARP commented language was deleted because he didn't want
anything in statute mandating the department to assist the federal
government.
Number 338
SENATOR TAYLOR asked who Mr. Regelin worked for.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN answered Mr. Regelin is the Division Director of
Wildlife Conservation.
SENATOR TAYLOR noted the department's position paper states SB 77
would amend a statute enacted by the Eighteenth Alaska State
Legislature that has not yet been implemented through regulations
of the Board of Game. He asked Mr. Regelin why SB 77 passed during
the Eighteenth Legislature has not yet been implemented.
MR. REGELIN responded the effective date of the legislation passed
last year was July 1, 1994. In the nine months since that
legislation became law, the Board of Game has worked hard to
implement it. He is testifying from Fairbanks, because he is
attending the board meeting occurring there right now. It takes
several months to enact regulations through the Board of Game
process.
Number 360
MR. REGELIN continued with his review of the department's suggested
changes.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked if a correct interpretation of "historic"
would be a documented level.
MR. REGELIN responded he is not sure how "historic" would be
interpreted. He thinks it could cause confusion.
SENATOR SHARP also thinks the term "historic high levels" has to be
something recorded and documented. That is meant to set the high
point of what has happened in an area. It is an either or
situation. They just take into consideration what a previous
recorded historical high level was, or they manage for the
reduction of productivity.
Number 395
MR. REGELIN continued his review of the department's suggested
changes.
Number 426
SENATOR SHARP stated some of the board members are having
difficulty understanding they still have the power of restriction
of methods and means of taking of game. But he does not want
people, the department in particular, to think that "intensive game
management" is managing people.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked Mr. Regelin if he wants the legislature to
amend "old 77", or pass regulations to enforce it.
Number 442
MR. REGELIN responded the department thinks passing these
amendments to the legislation of intensive management passed last
year is premature, because the department has not even had the
chance to fully implement the bill. He thinks the board clearly
understands what the law says, and the department certainly
understands the law, and that it would be best to continue with
implementation of the current law. After it has been tried for a
couple of years, and if there are problems, then we could come back
with some amendments. Mr. Regelin stated the department has just
not had time to implement the legislation that has already passed.
Number 454
SENATOR HALFORD asked Mr. Regelin if he thinks "intensive
management" is the restriction of harvest by humans.
MR. REGELIN responded he does not disagree with Senator Sharp.
What he intended to convey is that "intensive management" means
predator control or habitat manipulation, both of which are
procedures. He doesn't want the department to be sued because
someone says the law mandates the department to kill wolves. He
doesn't disagree with Senator Sharp's intent, but is concerned that
the wording might lead to unnecessary lawsuits.
Number 470
SENATOR HALFORD thinks the seasons, bag limits, access
restrictions, and openings and closures are the least intensive
management tools. He thinks they tend to be conservative because
you don't have data, so you close it. He doesn't want that in any
way to be construed as intensive management.
MR. REGELIN replied he does not disagree with Senator Halford. He
just wants to try to keep the state out of court, if it's not
necessary to kill wolves to reach the goal of increased harvest for
human use.
MR. REGELIN continued with his review of changes suggested by the
department.
SENATOR LINCOLN asked Mr. Regelin if the term "approximate" should
be inserted in two places in the bill.
MR. REGELIN responded it would be inserted in two places.
Number 497
MR. REGELIN continued his review of changes suggested by the
department. Mr. Regelin asserted that "sustained yield" is not
defined in textbooks, or the constitution, or anywhere else,
because it is a principle, and it is very difficult to put a
precise definition on a principle. The one place "sustained yield"
has been defined is in forestry, which has led to many court cases.
Number 515
SENATOR TAYLOR asked Mr. Regelin if he thinks the term, "viable
population" would be better than "sustained yield." "Viable
population" is the term used in ANILCA.
MR. REGELIN does not think that would be any better. He doesn't
have any problem with the sustained yield principle, and he
understands exactly what that is. But he does not think it would
be wise to define that as a specific number.
Number 523
SENATOR SHARP commented "sustained yield" is defined elsewhere in
statute, other than the section relating to forestry. It is also
a requirement of the constitution. Unless it is defined, it is all
in the mind of the beholder. The definition in SB 77 is a simple
definition, and he does not see how that could be misconstrued.
Number 535
SENATOR HOFFMAN thought the committee adopted the "f" version of SB
77 at the last meeting.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN stated the committee did, but earlier today they
adopted the "g" version. The chairman asked if there was any
discussion or amendments.
Number 539
SENATOR LINCOLN moved amendment #1.
Amendment #1: to adopt the Department of Fish and Game's suggested
changes as submitted to the committee and outlined below.
1. Page 1, lines 9-13: Delete changes to Sec. 2, AS 16.05.050.
2. Page 2, lines 5-9: Delete Sec. 4, AS 16.05.090.
3. Page 2, line 16: Delete the words, "from historical high
levels."
4. Page 2, lines 28-29: Delete the words, "but not including
restrictions or methods or means of taking game, access to
game or human harvest of game", and replace with the words,
"and regulation of harvest by humans."
5. Page 2, line 30: Harvestable surplus means, "the estimated
number of animals born in a population during the year less
the estimated number of animals in the population that die
during the year from all causes other than predation or
harvest by humans."
6. Page 3, line 5: After the word "harvest" insert "or for herd
growth."
7. Page 3, lines 6-7: Delete definition of sustained yield.
8. Page 4, line 9: Insert "goal of" before the word "board."
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked if there was objection to amendment #1.
SENATOR TAYLOR stated objection.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked the secretary to call the roll on the adoption
of amendment #1.
Amendment #1 failed to be adopted by a vote of 2 yeas and 5 nays.
Voting in support of the amendment were Senators Lincoln and
Hoffman. Voting in opposition to the amendment were Senators
Leman, Pearce, Frank, Halford, and Taylor.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked if there were further amendments.
Number 555
SENATOR TAYLOR made a motion to discharge SB 77 from the Senate
Resources Committee with individual recommendations.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked if there were any objections to discharging
the bill.
SENATOR SHARP asked if there had been a decision made on the fiscal
note.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN stated the committee cannot adopt a fiscal note,
although he would be happy to offer it and suggest it to the next
committee (Finance).
Number 560
SENATOR SHARP added there is no new money; it is existing revenue.
So he sees no reason the fiscal note should indicate new money.
This information has been indicated to him verbally and in writing.
It is reprogramming of existing money.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked Mr. Regelin if the department would be
submitting a revised fiscal note.
MR. REGELIN responded that he agrees with Senator Sharp, but if the
department gets into wolf control, it is going to cost money. The
department is not asking for extra money. He thought he should put
reprogramming on the fiscal note.
Number 572
SENATOR HOFFMAN stated he was offering amendment #2, in order to
keep the state out of court.
Amendment #2: To adopt the Department of Fish & Game's proposed
change #4 in its' outline of suggested amendments to SB 77: Page 2,
lines 28-29, Delete the words, "but not including restrictions or
methods or means of taking game, access to game or human harvest of
game", and replace with the words, "and regulation of harvest by
humans".
SENATOR TAYLOR withdrew his motion to discharge SB 77.
SENATOR HOFFMAN believed that is the change Mr. Regelin thought
would keep the state out of court.
TAPE 95-24, SIDE B
MR. REGELIN responded that is correct.
SENATOR TAYLOR stated objection.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked the secretary to call the roll on the adoption
of amendment #2.
Amendment #2 failed to be adopted by a vote of 2 yeas and 5 nays.
Voting in support of the amendment were Senators Lincoln and
Hoffman. Voting in opposition to the amendment were Senators
Leman, Pearce, Frank, Halford, and Taylor.
Number 572
SENATOR TAYLOR made a motion to discharge SB 77 from the Senate
Resources Committee with individual recommendations.
Number 570
SENATOR LINCOLN asked if discharge of SB 77 would include the
fiscal note.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN responded the committee has to include all fiscal
notes that have been received. It is his understanding that the
department has enough money in its budget to make the fiscal note
a zero fiscal note. On that basis, the committee has prepared a
zero fiscal note. It is the chairman's understanding that the bill
would then not have to go to the Finance Committee.
SENATOR LINCOLN asked Mr. Regelin if SB 77 leads to unnecessary
lawsuits the department will have adequate money to cover any legal
costs.
Number 558
MR. REGELIN responded that any court costs would come from the
Department of Law, not from the Department of Fish & Game. So
court costs would not have anything to do with the Department of
Fish & Game.
SENATOR LINCOLN asked if the Department of Law has been asked for
a fiscal note.
MR. REGELIN replied the Department of Fish & Game has not asked for
a fiscal note from the Department of Law.
Number 547
SENATOR PEARCE stated the Resources Committee cannot submit a zero
fiscal note. If the department submits a zero fiscal note, then SB
77 could skip the Finance Committee.
SENATOR LINCOLN stated she understood the chairman to say the
committee had prepared a zero fiscal note.
SENATOR PEARCE replied he did say that, and he has; however, it
doesn't matter unless the department gives us a zero fiscal note.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN stated that is correct. We can send the zero fiscal
note along, but that won't change the fact that SB 77 has to go to
the Finance Committee, unless the department also changes their
fiscal note to zero.
SENATOR HALFORD stated the only committee that can reduce a fiscal
note is the Finance Committee.
SENATOR LINCOLN commented that since SB 77 wasn't referred to the
Finance Committee, she wanted some assurance that the bill was
going to the committee.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN stated SB 77 will be referred to the Finance
Committee.
SENATOR HALFORD stated, unless the department issued a zero fiscal
note, the bill would have to go to the Finance Committee.
SENATOR LINCOLN commented it sounded like they had lots of money to
do all of this, so she is sure they will come back with a zero
fiscal note.
SENATOR TAYLOR said he didn't think so.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked if objection to discharge SB 77 from committee
were maintained. Hearing no further objection, the chairman stated
SB 77 was discharged from the Senate Resources Committee to the
next committee of referral, whatever that may be, with individual
recommendations.
SRES - 3/20/95
SB 130 MARINE PILOTS
CHAIRMAN LEMAN brought up SB 130 as the next order of business
before the Senate Resources Committee and called Senator Pearce,
the prime sponsor of SB 130 to testify.
Number 523
SENATOR DRUE PEARCE, prime sponsor of SB 130, read her sponsor
statement on the bill to the committee.
Number 500
CHAIRMAN LEMAN announced it is his intent to refer SB 130 to a
subcommittee. The chairman of the subcommittee will be Senator
Pearce, and the members will include Senators Halford and Hoffman,
and Senator Taylor, and any other interested Resources Committee
members may also participate. The chairman asked if anyone wished
to testify on SB 130 at this time. Hearing none, the chairman
ended discussion of SB 130.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN announced Wednesday, March 23, the committee would
be hearing HB 128, HB 169, and bills previously heard. That would
possibly include SB 81.
Number 469
SENATOR LINCOLN asked the chairman if there will be a Resources
Committee meeting Saturday.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN replied there is a meeting posted, but it will have
to be rescheduled, since there have been scheduling and expense
challenges. He asked committee members to work with the committee
aide on rescheduling that meeting.
Number 439
CHAIRMAN LEMAN adjourned the Senate Resources Committee meeting at
4:43 p.m.
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